Conversation With An Adversary

Following is a mail exchange I had with a person recently. Lets say his name was XYZ.

XYZ wrote:

Hi ,

Just few days back I saw a documentary type movie which speaks about the phenomenon of Life and universe.

Here attached is a pdf of 100 quotes from the movie.

It explains about the kind of experiences we get in our day to day life and why we get them.

It also suggest how we can transform it by understanding fundamental law behind the Creation, it is the "Law of Attraction" .

The movie is worth watching and the Quotes are worth reading.

I replied:

Thanks :-) It will be nice if we can get some scritural backing to this "Law of Attraction". Otherwise, I can also come up with my theory about the Creation.

But whats the value of all such theories if they are not backed by scriptures and not preached by Acharyas coming in parampara?

Too many quotes are based on "feelings". Feelings can change. Our thoughts can change. Our perceptions can change. But the reality never changes. What is that unchangeable reality? What is that Absolute Truth? I am interested in that. I might feel something today and something else tomorrow. I have recognised that my thoughts and beliefs are not necessarily mathcing the truth. Lord Krishna never told Arjuna to just imagine that he is happy! That is bogus philosophy and any sane man will reject it outright! Arjuna did not just imagine that he is happy. He fought after He understood the Truth. And even Sripad Shankaracharys never tells something bogus like "Imagine that you are happy". Vedic literature is not about imagination, but about truth.

According to Shankaracharya, everything is one. But that theory has been totally smashed by the Vaishnav Acharyas. Not only that, Lord Siva himself tells Parvati in the Padma Puran : "I am going to come and preach this bogus Mayavada philosohpy to bewilder the Buddhists into accepting the Vedas. But saintly people should avoid Mayavada philosophy which claims that everyone is GOD."

Sripad Shankaracharya's philosophy is very technical. No one can understand it easily. To follow it requires taking Sanyas. One cannot follow it staying in city life. It requires a lot of austerity.

Saying that everyone is GOD is saying that there is NO GOD. This is atheistic philosophy and is therefore not supported by the Vedas. Vedas say that everyone is part of God and qualitatively one with Him. Not that everyone is equally powerful as GOD.

Lord Chaitanya who is Krishna himself (if you accept Bhagavad Gita, you have to accept Lord Chaitanya's teachings because Lord Chaitanya and Krishna are the same person), has unambiguously warned everyone that whoever will fall into the trap of Shankaracharya's Mayavada philosophy will cause "sarvanash" unto himself.

The choice is ours.

Regards,
Abhijit.

XYZ replied:

Hi Abhijit,

Yes , to prove any theory we must find out backing from old scriptures and acharyas.

But just want to know , have you read it..if time permits in office { which is very difficult }

Just want to acknowledge validity of your argument but want to say that just try to understand ..whether, can you connect your life experiences with this.

I replied :

I can have various theories that can explain my life experiences. But I am interested in the truth. What is the real explanation? That only Vedic literatures can give when studied under an authentic Spirirual Master (Guru) who comes in parampara. No one who is not in parampara can give spiritual truths.

We have been taught by our spiritual master to not read literature not coming from an Acharya. Just like milk touched by a snake becomes poisonous even though it looks like milk, similarly, knowledge taken from someone not authentic (in parampara) is like poison even if it looks like Vedic knowledge.

Ofcourse, the original Guru is GOD himself.

XYZ replied :

Abhijit,

One thing ..your experience { which we call "ANUBHUTI" } is the one and final thing which keeps you on the path ..Not just and thought.

Simply thoughts without experience brings frustration.

Its experience of god, not so may thoughts which you wrote about different philosophies, that is which we want.

When I asked you can you connect your experiences with this, then I mean that experience is a authentic thing, not simply making a theory from something.


I replied :


This debate can go on for ever :-)

All I am saying is this : Truth or Reality is independent of my thoughts, feelings, experiences, etc. Truth is something that does not depend on anything else for its existence. Whether I experince it or not, Truth will remain what it is.

I want to know what is that Reality or Absolute Truth?

I dont care for opinions of people who are not in an authentic parampara. That is the Vedic way of knowledge - to get it from parampara. Any other way of knowledge is faulty.

Just like if a blind man cannot experience light, does it mean there is no light? Or just because I can experience the sight of water in the desert does it mean that there is actually water there? Similarly, Truth does not depend on my experince. It is independent of my experinces. What we experince as truth might not be the actual truth.

I hope these examples are pretty straightforward..

Abhijit.

XYZ replied :

So what do you think ..what is keeping you on this path.

Is it only scriptures ? But don't have any experience of Joy and Peace in chanting !

What if you feel all chanting and Kirtana boring..no juice at all. Does the simply these examples of snake, light and desert will inspire you to be on path?


I replied :

From the very first day I met you, I had liked you. I like thinking people :-)

As I said, this debate can go on for ever.

Atleast you have to accept that experiences do not _necessarily_ represent the truth.

About chanting and devotional activities.. Most people do not feel any juice in it in the beginning. They think its a waste of time. Otherwise why does everybody not chant and do Kirtan? Why only a little percentage of the population is doing devotional activities? Why most of the people spend their spare time in watching TV, reading novels, reading newspaper, and so on? Does this mean that all these activities are better than chanting and kirtan?

No. This does not mean that chanting and kirtan are useless. Both of us will agree on this point, right?

Spiritual activities seem distasteful to almost everyone in this age. But if one is fortunate to associate with the devotees of Lord Krishna, the natural attraction for the Lord arises in the heart. Just like when a boy associates with a girl, his natural attraction for her is awakened. And gradually when the person serves and chants in the association of devotees, he also become purified. Then he can realise the truths about Krishna and scriptures.

Thus we see that whether one likes to do Kirtan or not, that is the most beneficial activity. Just like a patient suferring from Jaundice doesnt like to take sweets but generally doctors will advice to take sugarcane juice. So, even if the diseased patient experiences bitterness when he/she drinks the sugarcane juice, as his disease starts subsiding, he can experience the sweetness in the sugarcane juice. The taste of the sugarcane juice has not changed, just the perception of the person has changed from the diseased condition to the healthy one.

Thus, we should not rely totally on our experiences. Even if sometimes chanting doesnt feel very ecstatic, one must continue doing it and even if smoking might make one feel good (I have never smoked..) we must avoid doing it.

Thus, our sense perceptions and mental states should not form the basis of our activities. Activities should be based on the scriptures and the instructions of the Guru even if the activities do not seem palatable in the beginning. That is only because we are in the diseased condition.

Ofcourse, with this philosophical and scriptural understanding, and sincerely following the instructions of the spiritual master, one will gradually realise the truth and also attain everlasting bliss. Gradually he will experince real happiness that is not based on mental adjustments or sense pleasures or intellectual achievements, but based on pure love for God which is the natural state of every soul.

What is keeping me on this path is definitely the joy I experience in serving Krishna. But you will notice that this joy is on the spiritual platform and not on the bodily, mental, or intellectual one. It is because I am trying to get situated in my natural state of loving God. Its because lot of my activities are now connected to the Supreme Lord Krishna. Not because I am trying to artificially feel that I am happy or something vague like that.

In fact, only those activities that are based according to the Truth can give everlasting happiness. Any other activity can give at best temporary happiness.

So, it is a must to first know the Truth and then act accordingly. So, our quest should be to first of all find out the Truth.

Therefore I keep posing this question : What is the Absolute Truth?

And the Answer according to Narada, Vyasa, Devala, Asita, Arjuna, Sukadev Goswami, Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, Bali Maharaj, Lord Chaitanya, Srila Prabhupada, Santa Tukaram, even Shankaracharya (in his Gita Mahatmya) is Krishna!

Therefore whoever acts according to Krishna's instructions (same as Lord Chaitanya's instructions) will surely find true eternal happiness. All others will only suffer in this material world trying to imagine some kind of temporary happiness.

Cheers!
Abhi.


XYZ replied :

Hi Abhijit,

Just to end up but not to stop..

On the first day of our discussion I had spoken to you that this discussion is going on from Yugas..

Neither you or me can end up the things.

Sometimes we will again continue with the things.

Any way I like discussing on it on e-mail because everything is getting documented otherwise it would have been lost.


I replied :

:-) Yes, we will stop for now.

Actually debates do not lead one to the Absolute Truth. Only by the mercy of the Spiritual Master can one understand God. Even if the debate is an old one, there still exists the Truth that is independent of what the debators think :-)

I will end with saying : One must carry on ones quest for the Truth by sincere enquiries, honest hearts, and service to our Guru.

Frankly, I am very very eager to know the truth. You would have felt that in my mails. I hope you are too.

Warm regards and Best wishes,
Abhijit.

XYZ replied :

Yes abhijit .

I could feel your longing for TRUTH.

And the truth is above debaters and beyond the power of comprehension of debaters.

When one transcends different Levels of existence the TRUTH opens up in front of him as a reality-pure experience, not simply thoughts we do now.

What is most important is following spiritual practice, keeping faith in master and his Grace helps one to do that also.

So getting a master and following his instructions is what we need to do.

All the Best,

I replied :


Yes. Agreed totally! :-)

Thats why its so important to get a Spiritual Master and then follow him sincerely so that ultimately we realise the TRUTH.

As far as I am concenred, I am trying to follow the instructions of Lord Chaitanya (who is Krishna Himself) which have been passed down from Him in parampara through the literature written by His intimate disciples (like the 6 Goswamis) and His pure devotees who have no other motive but serving Him.

Here is a list of some of the evidences from the Vedic Literature to establish the Lord Chaitanya is God Himself :

http://www.acbspn.com/godhead/gaura_1predictions.htm

Therefore I know that my future is very safe as long as I keep following Lord Chaitanya's teachings:-)

All the Best to you too!

Warm Regards,
Abhijit.

XYZ replied :


Yes ,

All the Best for your future :-) .

As per as I am concerned I am happy, convinced following the Path and I am getting the results also.

The results, your experiences gives you confidence in Path, not just something you read from somewhere.

Regards,

I replied :

Ofcourse, I am getting the results too. I am not following purely on theoretical knowledge. The end result of following Lord Chaitanya is an eternal blissful life in the spiritual world where one is always serving Him with a lot of love and devotion. We are interested in that rather than merging into the Supreme and lose out on all the bliss that comes with serving the Lord. That kind of result the devotees consider worse than hell. For a devotee the only concern is loving service to the Lord. Therefore, depending on what end result one desires, one can follow a particular path.


XYZ replied :

Hi Abhijit,

what is this ?

** We are interested in that rather than merging into the Supreme and lose out on all the bliss that comes with serving the Lord. That kind of result the devotees consider worse than hell**

If you don't have complete experience how can you say something is hell and something is heaven.


I replied :

You asked, therefore I am answering:

Thats the verdict of the Vaishnav Acharyas, not mine. They know the truth. Otherwise whats the need of approaching a Spiritual Master if he cannot tell me the truth. We have no choice but to accept the verdict of the Spiritual Master.

Anyways, as I said, if you think merging into the Supreme is better than serving the Lord, its your wish. However, the fact remains that many impersonalists have become devotees of the Lord (like Sukadev Goswami who later spoke the Bhagvatam to Parikshit Maharaj, The four Kumaras who were the sons of Lord Brahma, and more recently Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya, Prakashanand Saraswati etc.). But there is no instance in the scriptures where a pure devotee of the Lord became an impersonalist wanting to merge into the Supreme.

Even people envious of Krishna like Shishupal merged into Krishna.. then why would a devotee aspire for the same result that even demons get? Devotees aspire for something higher which demons cannot get, and that is serving the Lord with love and devotion.

But as I said, the choice is yours. No one can force you to become a devotee of Krishna. That only happens when we get mercy of a pure devotee.

Warm Regards,
Abhijit.